Sandy Petersen has Changed the Terms of Your Interest-Free Loan to Him
Petersen Games is keeping your money and not producing what you paid for while they seek even more money elsewhere.
The most recent Cthulhu Wars campaign has turned into a bit of a debacle. It was, of course, originally slated for delivery in June of 2020, but the pandemic ended that idea. The concern for many backers wasn't that it simply got slowed down by pandemic restrictions for worker safety or entangled in shipping delays like so many other projects, but that production hadn't even begun. After all, CMON's campaign for Eric Lang's Ankh: Gods of Egypt was initiated one year after Cthulhu Wars and is now delivering around the world. Reassurances were provided for Cthulhu Wars backers in March of 2021 of impending pictures of production. These never appeared. Then a reassurance was given that production would be completed and shipping would absolutely begin as of July 31, 2021. As of July 12, Sandy clarified in the latest update linked above that production still hadn't even started but not for the reasons that many had been speculating about. Apparently, so many orders have come in from regular retail distributors that Petersen Games is now trying to raise capital to fill all of those orders, since it would put the company on much firmer economic footing.
That's a nice idea in these uncertain times. But it also means that Kickstarter backers' interest-free loans have now been extended without their consent so that Petersen can make even more money from distributors whom, of course, weren't even part of the original campaign. The efforts that created this extension have apparently been taking place for months and backers are only now learning that it may be even longer until they get what was promised to them; not because of the pandemic or the incredible logistical hurdles that every company is currently experiencing, but because Petersen Games wants to make more money.
Now, that's a laudable goal. Every company wants to make more money. But it rings hollow here because Petersen has already leveraged a lot of money at zero cost to the company. This is the working fallacy of Kickstarter in the last few years. Originally created as a way for individuals and small companies to get something printed that they couldn't otherwise raise the capital for, it's now being exercised as a marketing tool and a way for larger firms to simply avoid many of the normal costs of doing business. Certainly, capital is harder to come by, post-2008. But that doesn't mean that perfectly viable companies with 8 years of uninterrupted success can't do business the old-fashioned way by getting a loan, producing a product, and then assuming the risk of that product sitting in warehouses, pending orders from distributors or customers via PG's own website. Given that Cthulhu Wars routinely sells out, said risk would seem to be both minimal and a sure sign to any lender that Petersen is worth their assumption of risk by providing them with money.
But if these companies know there's a ready horde of customers willing to give them interest-free loans without terms (e.g. which can be changed at the whim of the recipient), then they're certainly going to take advantage of it. It's not like Petersen can't raise capital. The production and distribution of, for example, Cthulhu Wars: Duels through normal processes (capital investment, production, retail distribution) while the Cthulhu Wars campaign has been repeatedly extended is a pretty bald-faced admission of that. Other examples of normal business are still plentiful within the board game marketplace. Jim Felli, of Devious Weasel, raised the money and produced Cosmic Frog using those regular practices. Cosmic Frog is, I believe, in the midst of its third print run and has been sold direct from Jim and via regular retail. Certainly, despite his past successes with Zimby Mojo and Duhr: The Lesser Houses, no one is going to argue that Devious Weasel has a larger presence in the market than Petersen Games or that it should be easier for Jim to get a loan than it would be for Sandy.
Petersen's argument is that they're trying to do all of the production in one fell swoop for cost control reasons. In other words, it's cheaper for them to print 20,000 copies right now than it would be to print the 5000 that they owe the Kickstarter backers and then go back and print another 15,000 for the distributor orders that came in later. That, again, is understandable. But it's also not the backers' problem and it only highlights the criticism that Kickstarter has become more of a marketing platform and a way around the cost of doing business than it is a crowdfunding site. It's also a way for the loanee to dictate terms to the loaners. Ordinarily, you wouldn't be holding out on your capital source because the longer you held out, the more interest you'd be paying, which is a cost that most would like to avoid if they can help it. In really dire scenarios, holding out might also mean that the lender gets skittish and decides to call in the loan. Kickstarter backers have neither the pressure of that interest nor the ability to pull the plug. They're just along for the ride and have no recourse even if they never receive what they've paid for (outside of pursuing what would then nominally be a bankrupt entity in court. Good luck with that.)
A few people have argued in Petersen's defense that Kickstarter is a "pre-ordering" platform. That's not correct. Actual pre-orders from a manufacturer or distributor are for a product that is actually in production and normally only happen a month or two before actual release and distribution of that product. It's now been 27(!) months since the campaign for Cthulhu Wars was initiated and 13 months since the original planned release date and production has not even begun because, again, Petersen Games wants to hold on to the backers' interest-free and termless loan so that they can make more money from someone(s) else. So, this is the state of the board game world. I am a backer of this latest campaign for a few of the expansions that were perpetually out of print. I am not dying to have those items in my hand as I have plenty of other games to play and the proffered intent of this latest delay is indeed to prevent that scenario of things regularly being unavailable. But Sandy's personal guarantee to the backers in the above statement is an interesting footnote to this whole thing because his word is the only thing that current backers have to rely on, even as he uses it as a way to try to ameliorate the fact that the backers are seemingly beneath the notice of the Outer Gods.
This is part and parcel of Kickstarter, where you're a "supporter" not a buyer. The money is gone, Petersen can do anything he wants with it and, I suspect, has. The ride IS the product. The $259 product you were promised "FOR FREE" is part of the scenery that makes it so entertaining.
They mentioned somewhere that they had to switch factories while attempting to fulfill the latest CW print run. If I'm not mistaken, this will be their third or fourth factory they've gone through over the years.
I can't recall if it says this in the update, but Sandy Petersen also had to take out a second mortgage on his home to fulfill the first CW Kickstarter as domestic shipping ended up costing much more than they anticipated.
Years of miscalculations and mistakes add up.
I'm sorry, I know this is probably a massive derail, but I just wondered if backers of indie bands' new albums have the same complaints that we do.
These are the people I loathe the most.Jackwraith wrote: ...and this is a deliberate choice to take advantage of a situation to the mild detriment of many who've supported them for a long time and many who still do, given the high number of "That's fine! Go ahead and keep my money for as long as you want it!" responses on KS.
These are the people who guarantee KS will never stop with its ridiculous "KicKsTaRtEr Is nOt a sToRe" bullshit.
These are the useful idiots who give their money away to companies abusing a system not meant for them, no strings attached, and when repeatedly kicked in the ballsack respond with "THAT'S FINE!"
It's only because most people in the boardgaming business aren't mendacious pricks (yet) that KS' ridiculously open-ended idea of "crowdfunding" hasn't resulted in copious amounts of backer cash spent on hookers & blow with zero avenues for recompense.
I kid, of course, but just a little. They set the prices, so they can just fiat ROI at any point in this process. It's silly bullshit. As for the hookers-and-blow note above, I feel lucky to have been torched in the very early goings of KS'd board games with DICE AGE. Vaporware money pit and poisoned me on the process. Otherwise things like this would pull me in over and over, I am sure.
I've barely dipped my toe into Kickstarter, and mostly for D&D materials and miniatures to paint, rather than boardgames (although I have backed a few games). My Reaper Miniatures pledge should be shipping soon, and that's exciting, but I can't help but think ... Reaper made $3 million on this campaign. That feels like it goes against the spirit of Kickstarter. If an established, successful company can raise $3 million on KS ... what the fuck are they even doing on KS??? It's just kind of gross, and I likely won't back any future Reaper campaigns because of it.
Conversely, I'm a big fan of Red Raven Games. They've used KS a lot in the past, but they are finally moving away from it for their next game (Now or Never), and doing a traditional pre-order through their website, followed by a traditional retail release. Nice! The owner Ryan Laukat said that the company is now on a stable enough footing where they don't have to deal with the hassle and stress of a KS campaign. That's great, I feel like that's how KS is supposed to work.
I think they probably tripped up on the math because they essentially opened up their entire catalog for purchase in the pledge manager. They were offering dozens of products, and probably many didn't hit the magic number where the money raised covers the manufacture of the number of items ordered plus the manufacture of the number of items the distributors want (which is typically a verbal agreement with no contract or upfront money)
That's a great point. I have wondered about the viability of a lot of the CW catalog in the past. Why is Great Old One Pack 3 just one model? Is that enticing enough to both meet production quotas (cost effectiveness for model and packaging) and occupy shelf space (size of packaging, etc.)? There's always been a bit of a "We should do this cool thing!" element to the game that may not actually reflect consumer desire/interest. But, then again, everything constantly sells out, so there is clearly some demand. I haven't looked at the secondary markets recently. Is there regularly CW stuff available that isn't just someone trying to find the one fool willing to pay them 3x market price?
fightcitymayor wrote:
These are the people I loathe the most.Jackwraith wrote: ...and this is a deliberate choice to take advantage of a situation to the mild detriment of many who've supported them for a long time and many who still do, given the high number of "That's fine! Go ahead and keep my money for as long as you want it!" responses on KS.
These are the people who guarantee KS will never stop with its ridiculous "KicKsTaRtEr Is nOt a sToRe" bullshit.
These are the useful idiots who give their money away to companies abusing a system not meant for them, no strings attached, and when repeatedly kicked in the ballsack respond with "THAT'S FINE!"
It's only because most people in the boardgaming business aren't mendacious pricks (yet) that KS' ridiculously open-ended idea of "crowdfunding" hasn't resulted in copious amounts of backer cash spent on hookers & blow with zero avenues for recompense.
In fairness, it looks, from an unscientific point of view, as if the majority of those directly replying to the latest update see through it and are varying degrees of angry about it. Whatever tolerance there is seems to boil down to a few factors:
* People like CW.
* People (I would say wrongly, but YMMV) feel a certain empathy for the creator, who, whether cannily or no, seems able to evoke that sort of pathos. (Not quite a quote: I second-mortgaged my house; I'm thinking about cashing in my retirement.)
* People have too much stuff and don't really care whether they get this or that thing on any particular timeline as long as they were able to "help out."
* The KS ethos promotes a faux communal sense that can turn what should, in many cases (probably all cases involving board games and the like) into passion projects for both creator and backer.
But, like I said, most commenters seem to see it in varying flavors of sketchy.
I'm thankfully off the CW train. I have most stuff from OS 1 and OS 2, and the only thing I really wanted from OS 3+ was the updated errata for existing products that were changed even after the errata wave in OS 2.
I'm old enough to remember 4 years ago then SP threw a tantrum and left BGG because someone referred to his mildly misogynistic description of an alien race as mildly misogynistic. And the BGG drones lined up to fellate him on his way out the door.jpat wrote: * People like CW.
* People (I would say wrongly, but YMMV) feel a certain empathy for the creator, who, whether cannily or no, seems able to evoke that sort of pathos. (Not quite a quote: I second-mortgaged my house; I'm thinking about cashing in my retirement.)
Good times!
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1844060/goodbye/page/1
And as some of the backers have pointed out in the KS comments and the BGG torch and pitchfork thread, past updates that hinted at imminent production were obviously in no way accurate. PHALANX has run into similar ( and justified criticism ) for implying production was imminent for SUCCESSORS when in retrospect more recent updates exposed their past ones as pretty much lies.
The fact that after so many past KS and the high prices their games command, that this one project is such a stretch to print retail copies shows that not all of their past output has been as profitable as it should have been . When you have to resort to KS to fund REPRINTS, that ain't a good sign.
And Uba has a great point - opening up the PM to their whole catalog might have bit them in the ass in terms of low order quantities for fringe SKUs.
In a word: Yes.themothman421 wrote: Kickstarter must have some amazingly vague wording in their Terms of Service to allow bullshit like this to persist. Are companies really allowed to take $200+ preorders for a game and instead use that cash for business development? I do not get it.
In two words: Hookers & blow.
The last time I saw KS do anything related to clamping down was when they suspended Kolossal Games for creating Maple Games as a front so they could run concurrent KS campaigns (which is apparently verboten, when KS feels like enforcing that rule.)