Flashback Friday - Chaos in the Old World

Help me pick next week's Flashback Friday by rating some games here . I try to pick games that have the most ratings on TWBG.

I love it, but I don't get to play it nearly enough. I think Cthulhu Wars might have taken its place on my end.

I really like this game. It has been a long time since I played it. I also think Cthulhu Wars has replaced it for my group. I’m sure it will come back out some day.

RobertB wrote: I love it, but I don't get to play it nearly enough. I think Cthulhu Wars might have taken its place on my end.

I used to love Chaos in the Old World but Cthulhu Wars definitely surpassed it in my circles.

It's...fine.

The game has this problem where you have to play enough to learn your faction and play your role, only to discover that it was secretly on rails the whole time and you were all just really bad conductors. It's thematic, sure, but not great.

I seem to be allergic to Lang's games for some reason. Give me Root over this any day.

I have mixed feelings about Chaos in the Old World. The visual design is great and helps sell the theme and setting. But I feel like there is a disconnect between what I am doing and what is happening in terms of the setting, and that distance makes me feel less engaged in the game. The last time that we played, the event cards nearly caused a human victory, but a couple of players pulled ahead in the final stretch and one of them won.

This is a game where I have it and its expansion solely based on F:AT/TWBG recommendations but have not played it! I do tend to enjoy these sorts of games, though.

It’s still the best game of its type, otherwise we wouldn’t still be using it as the measuring stick whenever an imitator or spiritual successor comes along. You might have a favorite, but it is irrelevant in comparison to CitOW.

I sort of agree with you, Josh. You don't tend to hear talk about new DoaM without some relation to Chaos, though that is changing. That makes it foundational but in my experience that doesn't mean it's good or you should still play it. So like Washington's War is foundational for wargame CDGs but I think it sucks (others disagree, obviously).

To answer the actual question, No. Because the people I play with that enjoy it would rather play the newer Blood Rage, Rising sun or CW.

Gary Sax wrote: I sort of agree with you, Josh. You don't tend to hear talk about new DoaM without some relation to Chaos, though that is changing. That makes it foundational but in my experience that doesn't mean it's good or you should still play it. So like Washington's War is foundational for wargame CDGs but I think it sucks (other's disagree, obviously).

It's often mentioned on TWBG that we (hobbyists) are fractured due to all the new releases and people unable to keep up or play the same thing.

In such an environment, how would a newer game ever supplant something like Chaos which came out in a different time and was experienced by a much larger swathe of people?

Just musing.

I played it a couple of times and thought it was just okay. I don't normally mind dark themes in games (and I like Warhammer's tongue-in-cheek grimdark normally) but something about this really put me off. I didn't enjoy being a chaos god.

I can’t imagine playing this over Root, even as much as I like the Warhammer setting. Root is simply a better and more compelling assymetrical game. Cthulhu Wars is more fun and direct, but Warhammer >>>> Cthulhu. But I would still choose this over any other Eric Lang game.

It’s a great game- but it’s sort of over-complicated and sludgy. Over the years and many plays I’ve cooled on it- I wasn’t sad about selling it and Horned Rat for $250 about a year ago.

Gary Sax wrote: I sort of agree with you, Josh. You don't tend to hear talk about new DoaM without some relation to Chaos, though that is changing. That makes it foundational but in my experience that doesn't mean it's good or you should still play it. So like Washington's War is foundational for wargame CDGs but I think it sucks (other's disagree, obviously).

That’s a fair point, and I agree, WW does suck. However, while WW is recognized as being foundational, and rightfully so, the comparison that any new CDG gets is to Twilight Struggle. TS is beyond foundational, and CitOW is, too. The difference in opinion is purely based on favored variation from player to player. I have a favorite, it isn’t CitOW, but i still recognize that no experience my favorite of the bunch provided is as good as any play I had of CitOW.

I have mixed feelings about all these assymetrical DOAMs.

Root strikes me as too assymetrical, in the sense that the factions are fundamentally somewhat unbalanced and the players must take on the burden of re-balancing the game after they have played at least a few games.

Rising Sun superficially has a lot of options but ultimately seemed a bit scripted.

Cthulhu Wars was almost great, but I feel that the race for VP undercuts the sense of the setting.

I suppose that's my biggest complaint is that these assymetrical DOAMs (aside from Root) tend to fall short of expressing the setting and sense of dramatic narrative by abstracting certain elements in a mechanical way.

The real gold standard for this type of game is Dune, and all of these games fall short of the innovative and dynamic brilliance of Dune.

I think a separate point you bring up, Shellhead, is that these games do really want repeated plays with the same players or at least equivalent experience levels. The table needs to grow together and when it doesn't it can be rough to have a differently experienced player(s) thrown into the mix.

I would not be sad to spend an entire weekend playing various DoaM games. Definitely my favorite genre.

I think CitOW is the best game Fantasy Flight ever produced. I've used it to snare Euro-types who didn't like games-formerly-known-as-Ameritrash; Warhammer Fantasy players who claimed to not like board games; and random passersby in a local bar who then became serious boardgamers. It's that good.

I can see the comparison to Root because both of them require repeated plays to really engage with. If you're Khorne, you need to recognize what Slaanesh is doing in those specific areas and get in there and fuck up his business. But I think where Chaos is superior to Root is that you're still playing the same game. I think Root has reached the limit of so-called "asymmetrical play", where you often don't even feel like you're playing the same game as the Aerie vs the Riverfolk. CitOW's thematics and the fact that you're competing against the game itself don't let you reach that point.

hotseatgames wrote: I would not be sad to spend an entire weekend playing various DoaM games. Definitely my favorite genre.

Didn't do a whole weekend, but had a couple really awesome DoaM games today, including the oft-mentioned Cthulhu Wars, which doesn't really replace Chaos for me, given that one is all about board-maneuvering and the other involves significant card play, which CW lacks.

I really like it and I think it's, by far, the best Eric Lang design.

The interesting thing about it is that it's an Eurogame with direct attacks. Not just interaction, direct attacks between players. And this creates a very unique dynamic between controlling the board and achieving your goals. There's quite a bit of pushing, nudging and sneaking in that is rare in other games and I like the way your actions can be either symbiotic (Promote ruination), poisonous (Force Khorne to move in) or parastic (Get cheap kills).

Vysetron mentions the game is on rails and I don't agree but I know where he's coming from. Here's the issue: The game is not that well-nalanced and while the four factions are on the same level, upgrades and other cards are not. There are upgrades that are downright unplayable, others that are must have (Like Nurgle's VP for ruination) and some cards may very well be dead draws. But the game itself is varied and rich in decisions, which I appreciate.

I'm one of the few that wasn't impressed by Root, for the record. I just haven't found it very interesting.

Shellhead wrote: The real gold standard for this type of game is Dune, and all of these games fall short of the innovative and dynamic brilliance of Dune.

Dune plays in another league. It's such a brillant game in so many ways that CitoW and others just can't compare. I mean, Dune would already be the best game of its kind based on its combat mechanism and it has like 10 other mechanics on the same level. It's one of the best games ever made, hands down.

This was one of my worst gaming experiences, through no fault of the game. I had played somewhere between 5 and 10 hours of Heroscape tournaments earlier in the day at GenCon, and a friend decided to give this one its first spin at around 11 PM. I think I was Nurgle, and waited for it to end. From that day I on I've vowed to never play a brand new to everyone game late night at a convention unless it's dead simple like Codenames or Cobra Paw.

I haven't had a chance to give it another try.

Still in my all time top 5 after a decade. I have a few copies still in shrink since it’s (very probably) never getting reprinted and I’ve already worn through a copy already.

I'm not a huge fan of DOAM and as much as I do enjoy CitOW, I'd much rather play Nexus Ops.

I just played it yesterday and had a very unusual game with three newbies. Khorne won by victory points after all regions were destroyed. I didn't get any nobles nor heroes so I tried to focus on corruption but Nurgle wasn't having it and Khorne was dominating the board.

I always wish the game had gotten one more week of balancing. Tseench got a clogged hand and I got 4 cards that affected the non-existing nobles. I also believe Khorne walked into a trap (he got the Grat Demon upgrade over the little guys doing damage one) though he won on the back of it so who am I to say.

The game was fun, though the two eurogamers (Nurgle, Khorne) weren't too hot on it. They enjoyed themselves, which is more than I expected, though. I find it harder for the average eurogamer to play trashier games than the opposite.

^I find the same thing.

I enjoyed CitOW, but got rid of it in favor of CW.

I love games with card play and events, which I miss with CW. I think that CW has more in its favor, on balance. The incredible variety, the streamlined gameplay, the ability to play with more than four; all of these push it beyond its forebear. I like how the dial victory of the “original” was changed to be required, in combination with victory points, to win the game. The “dial” conditions also became more varied (6 one time requirements instead of 1 requirement to be met multiple times).