Ugh, Players

I was originally going to post in the usual thread about what games we have been playing lately, but realized that I had less to say about the game and more to say about other aspects of the experience, especially the players.

Yesterday was my second annual Day in the 'Verse event. I invited a bunch of friends to come over on New Year's Day to play Firefly: the Game for six hours. I got the 10th Anniversary edition a couple of years ago, and that contains the base game, every expansion, and a chunk of new content. As many of you already know, Firefly: the Game is a sandbox style competitive game that is primarily focused on pickup-and-deliver but also has a strong push-your-luck component in the form of crime jobs.

The original base game was a very good design and an amazing adaptation of a beloved tv show, with two strong knocks against it. First, the game tended to run long, like an hour per player long. Second, there was a notable lack of player interaction. At most, you might be able to steer the Reavers or the Alliance cops into encountering another player's ship, or at least getting in their way. An early expansion added more player interaction into the game by introducing bounty hunting, bounty jumping, and piracy.

There are some very interesting scenarios for the game, but all of them are designed to be played in 1 to 3 hours. Since my event could theoretically involve up to 10 players and would run for 6 hours, I ended up using a simple win condition that would work for a longer game: Whoever has the most money at the end of the 6 hours would win the game. I have multiple reasons for wanting to play Firefly for six hours. First, it's a very good game. Second, it's a deep, interesting sand box with all the expansions in the mix. Third, it takes an hour to set up and an hour to take down. Fourth, it's one of those games where it seems to take you more than two hours to get a good set of crew and equipment together, and by then the typical game is nearly over.

Last year, we had a great time. Five players, but I was the only who had played before. Everybody knew me, but none of them knew each other except for the happy couple. The only disappointment was that one player was three hours late because he overslept. Because everybody knew me and knew that I had experience, people tended to aim the Reavers and Alliance ships at me, so I finished third.

This year, the happy couple couldn't make it but the other two guys showed up again. Our fourth player had never played before, but he studied the rules carefully the day before the game. I checked in with everybody at 3:00 and 4:00, to make sure that everybody was enjoying the game and it wasn't running too long. Everybody seemed happy, but around 5:00, two of our four players had temper tantrums at the same time, and they weren't even mad about the same thing.

The players, in turn order:
1. Me: a gracious player who tried to be a good host. I offer newer players advice if they want, and I am more concerned about having a fun game than winning the game.
2. An old friend and veteran gamer. He used to have a slightly abrasive manner, but has matured out of it, and has always been a good person to have around.
3. An inexperienced gamer. He and #2 are both in my Stormbringer campaign. He showed up 3 hours late last year, but was only 30 minutes late this year. Last year, we started without him, but this year we waited because he was updating us via text on his way.
4. An experienced gamer who I just met a few months ago, through a mutual gaming friend. He studied the rules carefully before the game and asked good questions during the game. He brought his own lamp (!) just in case the lighting in my basement wasn't up to his standards, and this lamp was five feet tall and heavy. He was also the one who showed up precisely on time.

I got off to a strong start, with Monty and his ship the Restless Sole starting at Persephone, where there happened to be a well-rounded crew just sitting there in the discard pile. Soon I picked up Monty's "devil woman," the treacherous Yolanda, and also Dr. Simon Tam. #3 demonstrated analysis paralysis during setup, and it persisted for much of the game. Player #4 decided to play a cautious game, sticking to legal jobs involving long distances.

Later, I scored a high-paying crime job with a great deal of luck, attracting the attention of the other players. I soon lost Simon to the Alliance but picked up his crazy sister River. Due to players meddling with me, I never completed another job after that big score. #2 quietly completed multiple jobs, while #3 and #4 muddled along.

Around 5:00, #4 started to loudly complain that I didn't warn him that we would be using house rules. If he had known, he wouldn't have come because he hates house rules. I protested that the variant and very simple win condition wasn't really a house rule, but he countered that the long game favors experienced players. He also complained that six hours was too long in a game where somebody could build up a lead so big that nobody could beat him in the last two hours of the game. He declared that turn to be his final turn, though he said that he would watch us finish the game without him. Is he right about these points? Maybe. What do you folks think?

While #4 was complaining to me, #2 and then #3 were taking their turns. The previous turn, #2 put a Reaver in #3's wave, though he didn't directly slap it on top of him. This turn, #3 got a nasty navigation card while detouring, and it ruined his current job because it was a plague that killed some of his fugitives. So #3 got really mad at #2, and loud about it so that he could be heard over the already-complaining #4. And it got weird. #3 was grimacing while he was angry, so he had to explain to #2 that he wasn't kidding around and he was actually angry. Meanwhile, #4 misunderstood the situation and thought that #3 was mad at me for the same reason as #4.

With all the hollering, we ended the game early when #2 told us how much money he had, making it clear that nobody could catch up to him within the last hour of play.

Final scores, rounded to the nearest thousand:
Me: $7k
#2: $18k
#3: $4k
#4: $2k.

#3 stayed a little while to help clean up, because he felt about accidentally breaking one of the Firefly ships (about an hour before his tantrum), but he never fully calmed down or apologized. That may prove awkward on Sunday at Stormbringer, if he is still mad at #2. #4 stayed longer, so we talked more about his frustrations regarding the length of the game and the variant win condition. #2 stayed even longer, so that he and I could talk about the other players after they left. We agreed that #4 was prickly and inflexible, but otherwise not a bad player.

#3 is a different story. I might not invite him over for board games ever again. In a single afternoon, he:

1. Was 30 minutes late.
2. Made us all wait a while at what should have been the start of his first turn, while he took a nasty crap in the basement bathroom.
3. Didn't turn on the bathroom fan, causing the stench from that crap to fill the gaming area until I turned on the bathroom fan.
4. Played most of his turns slowly due to analysis paralysis.
5. Broke one the Firefly ships.
6. Had a temper tantrum because another player messed with him to a moderate degree in a competitive game.

I would like to report that #3 is otherwise a nice guy, but once in a while he is verbally abusive to his girlfriend while we are role-playing. The Stormbringer group includes three female players, so his behavior could potentially cause a bigger problem at some point.

We have all probably played with some annoying or disturbing people at times. Feel free to share your annoying player story here. But I had the disturbing realization yesterday that the paucity of available players has caused me to endure some people that I otherwise wouldn't want to be around. Why can't I just find some normal people to play my games? Well, maybe this hobby doesn't appeal to normal people. And maybe there aren't any normal people and we are all some degrees of weird, though some of us hide it more successfully. What do you think?

That's a tough one. First off, if no one has told you, the Stormbringer campaign you are doing is the stuff of legend. If they aren't thanking you for running that, let me be the one to do it now. THANK YOU THAT IS EPIC!
I think the timed solution for Firefly was exactly with what fit the situation. Looking at it from a player stand point, especially with a player having AP, I could see it being frustrating because I would want to be doing X but joe is over here eating up the timer and I can't catch up.
I was sure when I started reading this was going to be about pirates and bounty hunters gone wrong but, it's basically the nature of the normal game.
I'll post more in depth when I'm not at work but I feel for you and the situation.

Yeah, that's not an easy situation to resolve. #3 seems like Stereotypical Board Game Guy to me (i.e. lack of social skills in at least particular areas.) I've thankfully been able to avoid or cut loose most of those that I've encountered without too much trouble. But I also have a habit of making it clear with my groups that this is about HAVING FUN and if you're not HAVING FUN, the consequence is not that you make things less fun for everyone else. It's that you can drop out this time and we'll play past it. If you choose the first, non-acceptable option, the consequence will be that you are never coming back. But I also say that with the luxury of having multiple groups to play with at any given time (albeit still not enough for my jones...) and my impression over the years is that you don't have that luxury, on top of finding the right people to play a six-hour game with. That's a winnower even in my fairly large circle.

My only suggestion is this: Find a time to have a personal, face-to-face conversation with #3 and let him know your concerns if, and only if, you want to keep him in your Stormbringer campaign. If he is as nice as you say, it should not be a traumatic event. Personally, encountering this behavior on top of someone who is, as you say, not so nice to the person he's sharing his life with, would make me cut him loose right then and there. Full stop. I'll find some way to adjust the campaign for his absence. But that's me. If you are going to have an ongoing relationship with him, I wouldn't cause yourself the consternation of having this in the background (even if just your own mental background.) I'd bring it into the open with him and let him know that you object. If he apologizes, all good. If not, well, that's up to you and your tolerance levels.

Wow, that sounds awful.
I wholeheartedly agree with Wade about Stormbringer. From what you write, you put so much work in that.
The part that stood out to me from the above is something I experienced last year and wrote about on his forum - dealing with unpleasant people to get games played that are too much for casual gamers. My solution was to give it up. No. 3 and 4 are dudes I would not want a second date with.
Breaking a ship is bad, but that happens. Apologize, try to find a replacement, offer to pay for it, move on. But verbally abusing others, that's just shitty behaviour, gaming or not.
I'd bet you #4 will complain about the game being 'broken', 'solved' or what-have-you every time he's not winning, no matter what game.

1. I'd fire player 3 without question.
2. Player 4 sounds insufferable. They do have a point about long games and insurmountable end conditions... I think unless everyone is having a total blast just rolling along, once it becomes very clear that no one is catching the leader, maybe call it? It's a challenging issue since any 6 hour game is going to be a marathon. That said, everyone knew they were coming for a 6 hour game.
3. I appreciate the challenge here. I just moved to a city in which I basically know nobody and have no friends. I am going to have to decide how far I'm willing to drive to engage with a game group, and the dream of having people (I can tolerate) over to my house to play seems quite out of reach.

hotseatgames wrote: 3. I appreciate the challenge here. I just moved to a city in which I basically know nobody and have no friends. I am going to have to decide how far I'm willing to drive to engage with a game group, and the dream of having people (I can tolerate) over to my house to play seems quite out of reach.

Am going to have the same experience in a few months. We're moving across the pond (Portugal) and that means a whole new situation. We've already touched base with a social organizer in the city we're moving to and she has assured me that there's a large gaming group that pretty much plays somewhere every day, including her best friend, so that's good to know. But there's always the gamble about big changes and new social circles and all that. Hope you can get your situation sorted quickly and maybe meet some cool, new people.

I drop players that I don’t like playing with. It unfortunately keeps my group small and my play frequency low.

I'm in agreement about kicking Player #3 to the curb. I don't like that #4 quit but I guess it could have been fatigue at that point but I can't think of a single time I bowed out of a game out of frustration. (I lied, I just remembered that game of Monopoly that got the game banned at the household about 25 years ago. I did quit that one).
Going way, way back to my late teens, we did have one player in a DnD group that I refused to play with. He was crude, obnoxious and abrasive the entire time. I'm sure we were all that way at various times in our teens but I just detested playing with him.
Most of my groups have been pretty decent to Great. One of our current players does give off heavy frustration vibes when things aren't going his way but they never vocalizes it AT anyone.
I will say I have been to a couple of public gaming groups at game stores and a local library. They have been ok but I never really felt super welcomed into the fold as they say. Some players would bring a game, insist that was the only thing they wanted to play and then get upset when they didn't win.
My "favorite" story was someone brought Cthulhu Wars, requested I join, and taught the game. (I corrected a few things he had wrong during the teaching). In the end, they rolled horribly, this 15 year old kid triggered end game but I won by revealing elder signs as The King in Yellow. The game owner/teacher who finished a distant third got upset that I didn't tell him I could win that way. More over, they didn't even pretend to invite me back for the next gaming day.
I guess I've been lucky, other than teenage DnD sessions, the only yelling we have ever had is cheering on the mascots in Hot Streak.

A minor update. I mentioned that I still had my original Firefly base game plus a couple of expansions, and now Lamp Guy (#4) wants to buy them. Would have sold them to him today, but his plans kept shifting and finally he said he couldn't stop by this weekened.

#2 and #3 won't an issue at Stormbringer tomorrow, because the forecast calls for 3 hours of freezing rain just before our start time, so I postponed the session until 2 weeks from now. That should be plenty of time for #3 to get over his bad feelings.

I took an anger management class back in 2004, and it really helped me manage my anger by identifying and addressing cues with assertiveness. It wasn't an instant cure, but it made a big difference over time. I'm going to talk to #3 about anger management, but I suspect that he will deny that he has a problem. I will mention specific incidents, and he will probably blame other people or causes. One of the very first things I learned in that class is that anger is a perfectly natural reaction to certain situations. But we all need to manage our reactions instead of just lashing out and causing additional problems.

Shellhead wrote: A minor update. I mentioned that I still had my original Firefly base game plus a couple of expansions, and now Lamp Guy (#4) wants to buy them. Would have sold them to him today, but his plans kept shifting and finally he said he couldn't stop by this weekened.

/humor swap out the broken ship and put the rules card for the timed game on top.

Out of curiosity, had there not been a house rule of 6 hours, how long would this game have taken?

All of the official scenarios for the game take allegedly 1 to 3 hours to play, but I think that number is wildly implausible unless you have experienced players, and 3 or 4 players at the most. With the AP guy (#3) in the mix, a 3-hour scenario probably would have taken us 4.5 hours to play.

The weird thing about #4's complaint about the six-hour game was not that he prefers shorter games, it was specifically that it was a variant and he loathes variants. And he brings his own lamp to gaming sessions.

I still think that he may have a valid point about the longer game being sub-optimal because it only increases the lead of the winner, except that the crime jobs represent a significant opportunity for catching up.

While talking to him post-game on Thursday, I did come up with a possible accomodation for #4 next time. We would still play a six-hour game, but there would be two victory conditions. We would play one of the official scenarios for the first 3 hours or so, and somebody would win based on that victory condition. Then he could leave, and the rest of us would continue playing for the rest of the six hours and recognize a second winner based on whoever has the most money.

I think the last game I played of Firefly we did Blitz rule, Clearer Skies rule and ran "The Wells Run Dry" game where there is a set amount of money in the bank depending on the number of players (5,000 per player). Once it's gone, everyone tally's up their cash and whoever has the most is the winner. The best part of this is that if one player is running away with the game and has over half the total money, they can declare victory (So, in a four player game once someone has 16,000 they can declare victory - This factors in each players starting money).

I tried to fix the broken ship yesterday. It was the Jetwash, which is visually about the same as one of the regular Firefly ships. One of the drive pods snapped off. The two pieces smoothly fit together, so in theory I just need to apply a quick-setting superglue that works on plastic, and hold the two pieces together until it sets. I picked up a superglue at the hardware store that has a set time of 10 seconds, and planned to hold it for a 20-count just to be sure that it set. Unfortunately, the superglue wanted to stick to anything but wouldn't cause the pieces to stay attached. After my second attempt, a fingertip on the latex gloves that I was wearing got superglued to the ship, but the two pieces still wouldn't stick together.

The other idea that I had was to drill a tiny hold in both pieces and use clipped piece of a paperclip or toothpick to connect the pieces, and then glue the connection point. Unfortunately, this section of the ship is so thin that I don't have a small enough drill bit, and either a paperclip or toothpick would be too wide. New idea: maybe I could glue to paperclip section to the underside of the two pieces to hold them together and then use some sort of epoxy to make them stick together.