D&D's Latest Books Take 5E To New Places - Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel and Spelljammer Review

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I ran Temple of Elemental Evil back in the late '80s, and it was great. Fifteen years later, I got to play Temple of Elemental Evil on my computer, and that was even better. Other than updating ToEE to 3.5, the computer game adaptation was surprisingly faithful to the source material, and modders eventually upgraded the game in interesting ways. Also, the computer version handles all the tedious complexities of 3.5, like attacks of opportunity and spell durations.

Are you no longer an OSR fan?

No. Although there are lots of very talented, creative folks working in that space the whole thing is ultimately a negatively atavistic reaction to the advances in accessibility and diversity that D&D has made. Much of that whole OSR thing is a cover for some very bigoted, edgelordy, and elitist attitudes. I found myself rather routinely disappointed to find that creators and adherents to the OSR style were bigots, sexists, homophobes, and far right-leaning. I'm also about this weird Gygax/Arneson worship that goes on there. I do really love the Moldvay rules because that's what I grew up with but the game has changed for the better across the board and books like these, despite some flaws, really show how far the game has come. Ultimately, D&D in any edition can be played however you want and it doesn't require this kind of ubernerd devotion to antiquated rules.

I do still very much love and still play/run DCC and Mork Borg- to me those games not only represent what I think are the best qualities of OSR style but they also move it forward into a contemporarily valid context.

I fell really hard for OSR because I loved getting back to old school THAC0 D&D...but I also had an epiphany with it when trying to get two groups into playing OSR games. Both groups has started with 5e, and then here I come trying to get them to play a game like I played 30+ years ago. They -hated- it, and it killed both groups. I felt terrible.

But I'll tel you what my Tenple of Elemental Evil game, which I run using Goodman's -excellent- 5e conversion from their Original Adventures Reincarnated line, is as old school as can be. But with familiar, accessible rules.

Interesting. As a self-described OSR fan, I thought the negative parts were a very small minority of the scene and the major reason I like OSR is for the very simple and accessible rules. I'm sorry to hear you've had some bad experiences.

We ignored three quarters of the rules back when they were published.

I don't think OSR has anything to do with gatekeeping or far-right agendas for most people. I just prefer the way the game runs under Moldvay/OSE.

If one of my players says they want to search under the mantle for a hidden lever, they just find it if it's there. Great idea! No rolling an investigation check that everyone then wants to try until somebody succeeds. I got so sick of 5e's perception checks and investigation checks and on and on...

The other area where I prefer OSR is combat and the creativity you are afforded. Nothing is codified in the rules. You want to jump off of a flight of stairs unto the orc with your sword drawn? Go for it. If you hit you get double damage, but if you miss I'm going to rule you fumble your weapon and possibly hurt yourself. Nobody at the table is going to look up the page number for "jumping off staircases with your sword drawn" to prove you did it wrong because "rulings over rules" is the core value of the game.

I get that 5e has a sleek rules systems that you can use to resolve everything and that's great but I actually LOVE all the strange little mechanics found in 1e. It made the whole game seem so weird and arcane and rewarding to discover.

I don't know. There's no wrong way to have fun but don't deprive yourself of OSR just because OTHER people who use it are assholes. There's nothing stopping anybody from learning from the mistakes of the past and applying a more modern mindset to older games. I would imagine (hope) that's what most people in the community are doing.

I think it’s easy enough to enjoy OSR-style games and rules, while ignoring the OSR scene. It does seem to have a high degree of reprobates for whatever reason; maybe there’s just a lot of people who think everything was better 40 years ago. Games, social attitudes, whatever.

Although, if you like the style of games/rules, there’s better games out there than B/X. I’m not sure why anyone would get B/X today when there’s OSE or Labyrinth Lord — basically the same thing, but better written, better organized, and more consistent.

But unless I really needed to run modules with a certain amount of combatibility, I’d rather run Knave, or Maze Rats, or Errant. All the feel, but a little more interesting to me in terms of rules structure.

OSR scene

Who on Earth is role playing with strangers?

Sagrilarus wrote:

OSR scene

Who on Earth is role playing with strangers?

Exactly. And who cares what the strangers do that also play the same game you do? That's not your game!

Sagrilarus wrote:

OSR scene

Who on Earth is role playing with strangers?

Not me. My contact with the OSR scene has been:

- I need a new scenario for my group
- These OSR guys seem to have a similar vibe to what I am after
- Oh these OSR adventures are pretty cool
- Let’s go check out an OSR forum, maybe there’s some more cool ideas there
- WTF

The OSR blog world is pretty fun if you find some people who you relate to. I really like A Knight At The Opera and Lich Van Winkle, personally. It's when you venture into the OSR-specific web spaces that things get unpleasant quickly. It's not been so much right-wing wankery, but more a serious case of looking down on those normies who would stoop to playing 5e. By choice, even! It's a bigger problem in places that skew younger, like /r/osr. But it gets really exhausting.

There's also a reverential tone among some OSR spaces that I find pretty silly. You MUST use dungeon rounds. You MUST meticulously map every corner. You MUST make the game about resource management. You MUST utilize hirelings! You MUST teach your players about consequence and how tough life is, like a strict parent. It takes about ten minutes in the TTRPG hobby to realize that most things you MUST do actually aren't that necessary. But again, a lot of OSR spaces insist that if you aren't doing these things you must be some kind of lazy gamer who isn't worthy to play the really good stuff. It's so exhausting and so try-hard.

That's to say nothing of the surprisingly adult-oriented material the OSR community often produces. It's surprisingly hard to find kid-friendly stuff. I can only chalk this up to the influence of Lamentations of the Flame Princess. That game has gone out of vogue now, but its legacy stretches long.

All that said...I like a lot of OSR stuff. I'm running an OSE game at my son's school these days, and it's pretty fun. It's nice to have a game that just gets out of the way, especially with eight kids. I like that there's a preservationist component of the hobby that works to keep older styles of play in the conversation, and seeks to build off of them. I like that so much of the content is free. (Though a lot of that free content seems to be created with the mindset to be as minimalist as possible, often to the detriment of the module.)

I'm much more of a 5e type, but I really enjoy a lot of OSR stuff. But the community can be pretty exhausting sometimes, just as much as any other community on the internet.

No argument that there’s lots of ways to play D&D, and the only criteria for whether a particular style is valid, is whether it’s fun for your table.

BUT … I think there’s a more nuanced argument, which is that B/X and its derivatives assume a certain style of play, and if you lean into that style, the rules will support you. If you don’t, you’ll be fighting or ignoring the rules, and there might be better games out there that will give you what you’re after.

What the heck is B/X?

Basic/Expert Dungeons and Dragons.

1981 edition written by Moldvay and Cook. The Basic boxed set has an iconic magenta cover.

It's widely seen, among fans of old D&D, as the best iteration of the rules. It doesn't have the endless cruft of AD&D, or even the slightly restrained cruft of the 1983 Mentzer "BECMI" D&D (that's five boxes: Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortals) with the iconic Elmore cover. It's clear and consistent (for the most part).

Old School Essentials, Dark Dungeons, Labyrinth Lord, and Basic Fantasy are all restatements of B/X. Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Mazes & Minotaurs, and countless others are all heavily inspired to the point of being mostly compatible.