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Weighing the Upsides: A LotR: Fate of the Fellowship Review
- Jackwraith
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A co-op with a lot of great decisions that fairly drips with theme, it successfully escapes its past but maybe tries too hard in doing so.
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- Jackwraith
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- WadeMonnig
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- southernman
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A lot of games can have scripted ways to win that can appear to suck a bit of the fun of it. I have War of the Ring and played a new gaming mate earlier this year, he had never seen it before so watched a few videos before he came around (disclosure, I have never read much strategy on it so am unaware of most of the different tactics). He played the Free Peoples and proceeded to follow the advice of one video of just running straight for Mt Doom with the whole fellowship, killing off the party as required, resulting with him getting to Mt Doom with Frodo only left and winning the game. Admittedly I had a few really bad dice rolls in a couple of big battles, and he was slightly lucky with some of his, but the speed at which he did this meant I was never able to get enough of Sauron's units near his strongholds to even threaten a military victory.
I was stunned that it was so easy to win an epic game like WotR with a scripted play like that and it has completely taken the gloss of it now for me as a great strategy game.
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- Jackwraith
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And, granted, I may be guilty of some of that lack of engagement on my own part in analyzing what this game is doing, as opposed to how it feels. But I will say that the "feel" part was pretty forward in my mind when playing and writing this.
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It doesn’t get diminished because someone managed to use an approach against you that you didn’t recognize and develop a counter strategy for. There are also strong and fast Shadow strategies that can surprise a FP player who is unaware of them.
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- southernman
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n815e wrote: If you see some is moving the Fellowship a lot in War of Ring, you have counters.
It doesn’t get diminished because someone managed to use an approach against you that you didn’t recognize and develop a counter strategy for. There are also strong and fast Shadow strategies that can surprise a FP player who is unaware of them.
This was more than moving it 'a lot' - he basically sprinted for Mordor killing off nearly the whole Fellowship to shield him, I had an unlucky roll or two (it's a dice game, have to expect that) but had no time to do much during his sprint. I'm sure if I read lots of strategy posts there may have been something I could have done if the right cards had come up (in the limited time I had to draw cards) and my dice were well above average, but then using action dice to look for cards to try and head him off means fewer to get any type of war engine going although, again, the shortness of the game meant that was never going to work for me anyway.
It's a great game, I'm just disappointed that it can be scripted like that.
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Jackwraith wrote: ...people who just want to win the game, by any means necessary. I've had a couple discussions like this over Star Trek: Ascendancy on BGG, where people have asserted that a tactical approach was "unbeatable" and therefore the only way to play which was unfun and consequently made the game flawed or in need of reworking or whatever. My response was usually that if you run into those people who make the game unfun, you should probably play with someone else.
Those are the exact people that game designers need to seek out for playtesting. Players will eventually discover any weaknesses missed by your playtesters, and probably post about their broken strategems on BGG or other sites. I understand that game designers want to get past the playtesting phase ASAP, because they don't want to make changes to the game after every single playtest. And it is also harder to recruit playtesters than to just find people to play a published game. This is why solitaire games to tend to be better designs on average.
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- southernman
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But I can see this being pretty difficult for four and five player counts - it's like the Legendary Encounter: Alien deck-builder in that the main deck is the timer for the game and so with more players you get fewer and fewer turns. In LE: Alien this means you have less time to build a deck to kill the Queen at the end (and you all usually die), and in FotF it's to get those four quests done - I'm sure it is more possible in the latter with all your interactions (moving each other, more characters to head off enemy raids) but I can just see it coming down to lack of time ... I'll find out in the near future.
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southernman wrote: Finally had a play of this last night - two of us just using the introductory difficulty level with intro characters and quests. We had watched the rules videos and read the rules so knew what we were doing (the rules aren't complicated) and managed to - just - get a win with about two thirds of the player cards gone and Hope on 2. It was fan and you needed a bit of strategy until, at a certain point, you realize just have to sprint to Mt Doom
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But I can see this being pretty difficult for four and five player counts - it's like the Legendary Encounter: Alien deck-builder in that the main deck is the timer for the game and so with more players you get fewer and fewer turns. In LE: Alien this means you have less time to build a deck to kill the Queen at the end (and you all usually die), and in FotF it's to get those four quests done - I'm sure it is more possible in the latter with all your interactions (moving each other, more characters to head off enemy raids) but I can just see it coming down to lack of time ... I'll find out in the near future.
With more players, each player gets fewer turns, but the table as a whole gets the same number of total actions. I've only played it with 4 players ( 2P, but each playing two handed ) . I do wonder how it plays with lower player counts - sure each player has more actions, but with only 4 characters, parts of the map will be harder to wipe out Shadow armies moving towards Strongholds .
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- southernman
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And to back that up we played our second game (two player again) and lost badly, well badly in that even though we got the three other quests done OK we had no preparations for destroying the ring and did lots of stupid things
- there are only 12 Ring cards in the game so ensure Frodo gets cards/tokens and doesn't spend them
- move Frodo if the Eye arrives in his region
- have battles to both move the Eye away from Frodo and to keep the enemies pile an actual pile (doh to both those from us)
- DON'T move Frodo into Mordor without the required Rings (BIG doh)
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The below, at the bottom, by Southernman sums up the key strategies for staying afloat and getting Frodo to Mount Doom to destroy the ring. This implies that the game is solved and will get stale quickly, but I do not think this is true. What will keep the game fresh for awhile is that prior to being able to destroy the ring, you have to complete three other random missions. How you go about solving those missions while keeping the eye off Frodo is the game. How to go about solving the three random missions is also dependent upon which characters are in the game. So despite the fact that how you destroy the ring is kind of "solved," the larger part of the game isn't.
It is true that how Frodo is played is pretty scripted. The biggest challenge I found is convincing new players of this. Players who tend towards being a bit more controlling and playing offense will immediately want to play Frodo. It can be tough convincing them that they will not enjoy the game if they play Frodo. Frodo doesn't have much agency, and for the first two thirds of the game he's going to be carried, hidden and protected by the other players until the Frodo player has accumulated enough rings and cloaks, the other three objectives have been completed, and the path to Mordor has been cleared. So for the first two thirds of the game the Frodo player is essentially only playing one character, with Frodo mostly taking the single action to do something that is bit boring. It's like playing Mina in Fury of Dracula, but worse, which probably was a major factor in the designers deciding everyone should play two characters.
Overall, it was more fun with more players and didn't seem particularly easier or harder than with lower player counts. More players with more powers opened up more choices as to how to go about doing what ever needed to be done at the moment. With experienced players it plays in about 90 minutes, and packs a fair amount of drama and story into that relativity short play time. I may grow board with it in the future, but I think I will get enough enjoyable plays out of it to get our money's worth.
southernman wrote: - there are only 12 Ring cards in the game so ensure Frodo gets cards/tokens and doesn't spend them
- move Frodo if the Eye arrives in his region
- have battles to both move the Eye away from Frodo and to keep the enemies pile an actual pile (doh to both those from us)
- DON'T move Frodo into Mordor without the required Rings (BIG doh)
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- southernman
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And as Shelley says the three other quests will always change and even if you do get the same ones it is very likely that the initial shadow cards, that will be about half to two thirds the ones you will see in the game, will not be the same so will cause different strategies.
For example in our game two of those quests were getting help from Gondor and Rohan, but a high number of the initial nine Shadow cards drawn were moving to those two regions - so the early strategy needed to be to get down there to complete those quests, taking troops from up north, so we could release the Gondor and Rohan units on those quest cards before Sauron's forces took them out but on another day we could have had to watch out for his units going north while going south.
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