Flashback Friday - Chaos in the Old World
Love it or hate it? Do you still play it?
Michael "Egg Shen" Nadeau had this to say about Chaos in the Old World:
"There are few games unique and daring enough to walk into the Grand Discotheque of Gaming and dare flirt with perfection. Well, while killing it in a little black dress, Chaos in the Old World sauntered right on up to Mr. Perfect and let me tell you the dude was blushing...hard. This game doesn’t seem to get discussed as hotly as it once did. Well it should, because it’s a masterpiece! Chaos in the Old World essentially put Eric Lang on the map. His mixing of a cutthroat Dudes on a Map Game with Euro mechanic sensibilities, asymmetrical powers, and Warhammer Fantasy is like some dark, twisted, equation that solves the riddle to the meaning of life. Playing as a Chaos God looking to destroy the world is not just fun…it's down right addicting. Some people could never get past the bloody Warhammer veneer or have since moved onto other newer and fresher games. Mark my words, Chaos in the Old World will go down as one of the greatest boardgames of this era. If or when it goes out of print it will be a hotly sought after treasure."
What do you think?
The game has this problem where you have to play enough to learn your faction and play your role, only to discover that it was secretly on rails the whole time and you were all just really bad conductors. It's thematic, sure, but not great.
I seem to be allergic to Lang's games for some reason. Give me Root over this any day.
Gary Sax wrote: I sort of agree with you, Josh. You don't tend to hear talk about new DoaM without some relation to Chaos, though that is changing. That makes it foundational but in my experience that doesn't mean it's good or you should still play it. So like Washington's War is foundational for wargame CDGs but I think it sucks (other's disagree, obviously).
It's often mentioned on TWBG that we (hobbyists) are fractured due to all the new releases and people unable to keep up or play the same thing.
In such an environment, how would a newer game ever supplant something like Chaos which came out in a different time and was experienced by a much larger swathe of people?
Just musing.
It’s a great game- but it’s sort of over-complicated and sludgy. Over the years and many plays I’ve cooled on it- I wasn’t sad about selling it and Horned Rat for $250 about a year ago.
Gary Sax wrote: I sort of agree with you, Josh. You don't tend to hear talk about new DoaM without some relation to Chaos, though that is changing. That makes it foundational but in my experience that doesn't mean it's good or you should still play it. So like Washington's War is foundational for wargame CDGs but I think it sucks (other's disagree, obviously).
That’s a fair point, and I agree, WW does suck. However, while WW is recognized as being foundational, and rightfully so, the comparison that any new CDG gets is to Twilight Struggle. TS is beyond foundational, and CitOW is, too. The difference in opinion is purely based on favored variation from player to player. I have a favorite, it isn’t CitOW, but i still recognize that no experience my favorite of the bunch provided is as good as any play I had of CitOW.
Root strikes me as too assymetrical, in the sense that the factions are fundamentally somewhat unbalanced and the players must take on the burden of re-balancing the game after they have played at least a few games.
Rising Sun superficially has a lot of options but ultimately seemed a bit scripted.
Cthulhu Wars was almost great, but I feel that the race for VP undercuts the sense of the setting.
I suppose that's my biggest complaint is that these assymetrical DOAMs (aside from Root) tend to fall short of expressing the setting and sense of dramatic narrative by abstracting certain elements in a mechanical way.
The real gold standard for this type of game is Dune, and all of these games fall short of the innovative and dynamic brilliance of Dune.
I can see the comparison to Root because both of them require repeated plays to really engage with. If you're Khorne, you need to recognize what Slaanesh is doing in those specific areas and get in there and fuck up his business. But I think where Chaos is superior to Root is that you're still playing the same game. I think Root has reached the limit of so-called "asymmetrical play", where you often don't even feel like you're playing the same game as the Aerie vs the Riverfolk. CitOW's thematics and the fact that you're competing against the game itself don't let you reach that point.
hotseatgames wrote: I would not be sad to spend an entire weekend playing various DoaM games. Definitely my favorite genre.
Didn't do a whole weekend, but had a couple really awesome DoaM games today, including the oft-mentioned Cthulhu Wars, which doesn't really replace Chaos for me, given that one is all about board-maneuvering and the other involves significant card play, which CW lacks.
The interesting thing about it is that it's an Eurogame with direct attacks. Not just interaction, direct attacks between players. And this creates a very unique dynamic between controlling the board and achieving your goals. There's quite a bit of pushing, nudging and sneaking in that is rare in other games and I like the way your actions can be either symbiotic (Promote ruination), poisonous (Force Khorne to move in) or parastic (Get cheap kills).
Vysetron mentions the game is on rails and I don't agree but I know where he's coming from. Here's the issue: The game is not that well-nalanced and while the four factions are on the same level, upgrades and other cards are not. There are upgrades that are downright unplayable, others that are must have (Like Nurgle's VP for ruination) and some cards may very well be dead draws. But the game itself is varied and rich in decisions, which I appreciate.
I'm one of the few that wasn't impressed by Root, for the record. I just haven't found it very interesting.
Dune plays in another league. It's such a brillant game in so many ways that CitoW and others just can't compare. I mean, Dune would already be the best game of its kind based on its combat mechanism and it has like 10 other mechanics on the same level. It's one of the best games ever made, hands down.Shellhead wrote: The real gold standard for this type of game is Dune, and all of these games fall short of the innovative and dynamic brilliance of Dune.
I haven't had a chance to give it another try.
I always wish the game had gotten one more week of balancing. Tseench got a clogged hand and I got 4 cards that affected the non-existing nobles. I also believe Khorne walked into a trap (he got the Grat Demon upgrade over the little guys doing damage one) though he won on the back of it so who am I to say.
The game was fun, though the two eurogamers (Nurgle, Khorne) weren't too hot on it. They enjoyed themselves, which is more than I expected, though. I find it harder for the average eurogamer to play trashier games than the opposite.
I love games with card play and events, which I miss with CW. I think that CW has more in its favor, on balance. The incredible variety, the streamlined gameplay, the ability to play with more than four; all of these push it beyond its forebear. I like how the dial victory of the “original” was changed to be required, in combination with victory points, to win the game. The “dial” conditions also became more varied (6 one time requirements instead of 1 requirement to be met multiple times).