Flashback Friday - Twilight Imperium - Love it or hate it? Do you still play it?

Me and a friend were pretty excited to try out Twilight Imperium 4 but we soured on the game a bit as the the hours went by. It's not a bad game at all (and actually quite streamlined, which I'm told TI3 wasn't) but we had two issues with it.

The first is that Planetary Defense Systems are the single most important thing in this game. The vast, vast majority of your actions are based around them because anything you do in their (massive) range results in free damage. Moving into Mecatol Rex or any nearby system means you'll have half a dozen guns on you. And they fire twice! They fire when you get close to the planet and another when you land. My friend attacked with an army only limited by the available miniatures and lost to PDS, they are that centralizing.

In fact, I would say the PDS are the reason this game is so long.

The second issue I have is that the game doesn't do anything special with its lenght. As in, the experience is not very different from playing, say, March of the Ants for 6 hours in a row. And while this is not a "drawback", it's kind of impractical because why work so hard to find so many hours and so many players to play a game that doesn't need them? Save that time for Civilization or Dune.

I don't own it, either 3rd ed or 4th and I have never sought out games of it. However, providing I'm available, I wouldn't turn down a game of it either.

I have enjoyed my games of 4th ed more than 3rd. The game length really isn't an issue for me because I really enjoy one long 1st rate game which this is, as much as playing two or three different games.

I do have epic games I like more but they are damn near impossible to get played outside of a convention setting.

Erik Twice wrote: Me and a friend were pretty excited to try out Twilight Imperium 4 but we soured on the game a bit as the the hours went by. It's not a bad game at all (and actually quite streamlined, which I'm told TI3 wasn't) but we had two issues with it.

The first is that Planetary Defense Systems are the single most important thing in this game. The vast, vast majority of your actions are based around them because anything you do in their (massive) range results in free damage. Moving into Mecatol Rex or any nearby system means you'll have half a dozen guns on you. And they fire twice! They fire when you get close to the planet and another when you land. My friend attacked with an army only limited by the available miniatures and lost to PDS, they are that centralizing.

In fact, I would say the PDS are the reason this game is so long.

The second issue I have is that the game doesn't do anything special with its lenght. As in, the experience is not very different from playing, say, March of the Ants for 6 hours in a row. And while this is not a "drawback", it's kind of impractical because why work so hard to find so many hours and so many players to play a game that doesn't need them? Save that time for Civilization or Dune.

I'll let someone who plays it a lot more than me to comment on this but I have never played a game where PDS units have had anywhere near the effect as you have described, perhaps a rule was played wrong, perhaps you all did the same strategy and fought trench warfare, perhaps you just had awesome dice results.
I'd also be surprised if experienced players think ANY unit in the game can be that decisive, the race abilities and card effects have been more noticeably effective in our games.

I haven't played TI in 8-10 years but for me its still the best game ever

southernman wrote: I'll let someone who plays it a lot more than me to comment on this but I have never played a game where PDS units have had anywhere near the effect as you have described,

I haven't had games that were quite as problematic as what Erik noted, but I have had many games where a combat-forward race like the Sardakk were allowed to set up upgraded PDS networks on their side of the map. I would frequently encourage their neighbors not to let that happen, because once it's in place, it's extremely difficult to accomplish objectives anywhere near Sardakk space and they can rove around with impunity which is exactly what you don't want them to do (race that starts without a carrier for a reason...)

Take my comment with a grain of salt because I've only played once.

The issue is that it's very easy to have large parts of the board covered by several PDS which ends up dictating how the game plays. It's very difficult to get rid of them, because they fire twice, do not need to be in the same system and are often protected. However, it is very easy for them to hit you, as all you need to do is activate a system in their range.

They are not broken, but they are game-defining in a way I don't like.

Technically speaking you can ask people not to shoot you because you are attacking other player but it's not in their best interest for you to succeed on your goals so they won't. You might get permission ocasionally but 95% of the time they are going to shoot as default. Remember that negotiation is not binding, either.

Erik Twice wrote: ...Technically speaking you can ask people not to shoot you because you are attacking other player but it's not in their best interest for you to succeed on your goals so they won't. You might get permission ocasionally but 95% of the time they are going to shoot as default. Remember that negotiation is not binding, either.

The game is about negotiation so people will bargain, especially if someone is behind and can get something worthwhile out of it to keep themselves in the running - and in this particular instance, negoatiation to prevent PDS fire, it is binding (in TI4).

I still think you guys are throwing super lucky dice or you're sending in tiny fleets that just one hit can afffect.

I’ve yet to win a game of Twilight Imperium (came so close the last time) but it’s one of my favorite games. For me there is no other game like it. I have to plan my games weeks in advance but I don’t mind at all since no other game scratches the same itch.
I love TI3 and I think TI4 is as good if not better. The improvements, especially with tech, make so much sense. I sold my TI3 right away since I will likely not go back to it. I’ll still happily play it if someone else brings it out.

Never played. Will some day. Dunno when.

There is no game I feel more strongly about than Twilight Imperium (started with 3rd, but wildly intensified with 4th). This is game is the single best answer to why I game. I have a demanding, creative job. I have a spectacular wife and 3 daughters under the age of 8. I have close friends and family members whose company I enjoy. There are so many great things to enjoy your limited time with and I'll be damned but TI4 gives me a thrill every time I plan a game of it with friends (old and new) over the best time I've had at a game table.

This crowning achievement is not that it's balanced inherently. It is balance lies hidden at first in the meta, which is squish and murky - created between the players. Players who can honor deals to the hilt or backstab at a moments notice. But this well-designed game gives you all the levers and buttons to create pure, epic space opera joys. The complexity is formidable if you want to excel, but with 4th edition, gone are the days that it feels SO impenetrable.

Whew. I need a cold shower now or something. Maybe I should just write a damn article (love letter).

I'd be remiss if I didnt mention/plug the most wonderful resource that is Space Cats Peaces Turtles ( spacecatspeaceturtles.podbean.com/ ). Yep, that's a podcast dedicated to fans and created by fans all about TI4. They've even started a huge tournament (via Tabletop Simulator) that I listen to their recaps of the same way folks listen to sports games... Gah, I could go on and on and on...

SuperflyTNT wrote: TI2 is the only TI I’ve ever liked. It has the perfect blend of alliance, fuckery, and facebashing. I’d play if asked.

TI3 is garbage and I’ve never played TI4 (I think) all the way to the end because fuck TI.

Actually, I am in the same boat. I much prefered TI2 over TI3. It was more focused, and victory felt less arbitrary. I never liked the addition of the "euro elements" in TI3. Also, I think the game mechanisms are too complicated for a diplomatic game. I think these work better with simpler mechanics, as complexity detracts from passing deals and knowing when to break them (that is why I have always preferred Game of Thrones, or even Chaos in The Old World in a very different genre: the first one because it had more diplomacy, and the second because you could not really make a deal that would work).

I had completely phased out TI2/3 for Starcraft/Forbidden Stars and Nexus Ops, which have now be replaced with Space Empires 4X: I think that Combat focused games work better as team games than free for all.